Author Topic: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA  (Read 4414 times)

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Todd j

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Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
« Reply #120 on: December 02, 2019, 08:35:12 AM »
What it boils down to is you need an eye to hold your shackle against slipping.  You can see examples in my flip pics.  I did break the rules when I lifted the upright hull onto the jig.  But it really could t go any where.
  Proper rated rigging materials is the key. 

json

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Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
« Reply #121 on: December 02, 2019, 09:53:09 AM »
Right. Ya, I kind of realized that after it slipped and almost brought the whole thing down haha. Either way, glad that chapter is behind me, the whole thing was really sketchy but at some point I was committed and going for it. Glad I didn't drop it and cost myself a bunch more work or worse off put someone in the hospital or ruin the hull.

Djeffrey

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Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
« Reply #122 on: December 02, 2019, 05:23:06 PM »
Congrats, half way there. Looks really good. Just so you know, I too have a bunch of sanding to do on my sides still.

Jim_Hbar

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Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
« Reply #123 on: December 03, 2019, 11:34:40 AM »
Hahaha... darn... Ya, that's scary. I was trying to stay well clear of the direction it was going to fall/tip so if it did go I would have at least not been directly in the path, but I can't imagine being in a small shop while doing that with nowhere to run, not that there would be time to even react probably.

The carabiners I used had a 7 kN rating the open/closed direction, and a rating of 25kN the other direction, so while I am not going to pretend to know physics well enough to estimate a dynamic load, the rating would suggest that if nothing slipped (it did) then even on the weakest side they should be able to hold 1/2 of a thousand pound hull. Idk, maybe I am not considering something else about it though. If so I would love to hear so the next time I flip a boat I don't make the same mistake. I don't have a lot of experience lifting things or using cranes, I do have a lot of engineering math under my belt but that doesn't translate well to understanding real world scenarios for dos and don'ts.

I'm sure glad nobody got hurt, and the hull survived the ordeal.  You got lucky, very lucky! 
But don't EVER use a carbiner or sling like that again! >:(  And those eyebolts  ::)
No mention of your sawhorses..

Here's some "engineering math" for you to consider.  From WorkSafeBC.



BTW, I'm one of those guys mentioned in sub-section 15.6(2).. 
And I have done some work in this area, professionally.

If you would like some direction next time, PM me.

I'm trying not to be an A@# about it, but my first duty is to protect the public safety.

Hope that helps!




json

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Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
« Reply #124 on: December 03, 2019, 02:01:43 PM »
Hahaha... darn... Ya, that's scary. I was trying to stay well clear of the direction it was going to fall/tip so if it did go I would have at least not been directly in the path, but I can't imagine being in a small shop while doing that with nowhere to run, not that there would be time to even react probably.

The carabiners I used had a 7 kN rating the open/closed direction, and a rating of 25kN the other direction, so while I am not going to pretend to know physics well enough to estimate a dynamic load, the rating would suggest that if nothing slipped (it did) then even on the weakest side they should be able to hold 1/2 of a thousand pound hull. Idk, maybe I am not considering something else about it though. If so I would love to hear so the next time I flip a boat I don't make the same mistake. I don't have a lot of experience lifting things or using cranes, I do have a lot of engineering math under my belt but that doesn't translate well to understanding real world scenarios for dos and don'ts.

I'm sure glad nobody got hurt, and the hull survived the ordeal.  You got lucky, very lucky! 
But don't EVER use a carbiner or sling like that again! >:(  And those eyebolts  ::)
No mention of your sawhorses..

Here's some "engineering math" for you to consider.  From WorkSafeBC.



BTW, I'm one of those guys mentioned in sub-section 15.6(2).. 
And I have done some work in this area, professionally.

If you would like some direction next time, PM me.

I'm trying not to be an A@# about it, but my first duty is to protect the public safety.

Hope that helps!


Fair enough Jim. I admittedly deserve this, and while I considered taking this stuff down because it's not my finest moment, I left it up for now in hopes that future folks who are like me who are not versed in minimum design factors in rigging can see my mistakes and not make them again and put themselves in danger. Like I said (and I am sure you can tell), I literally have almost no real world experience with building or lifting anything of substance. This week I learned a lot of things, and in the future I can apply them.

However, might I suggest you work on your tact a bit, as typically when you open an interaction blasting someone they close up to suggestion. After your post the last thing I want to do is to ask you for help tbh. A better way to approach it is to leave off the condescending bit and just focus on the educational one. Food for thought...

Jim_Hbar

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Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
« Reply #125 on: December 03, 2019, 02:46:03 PM »
However, might I suggest you work on your tact a bit, as typically when you open an interaction blasting someone they close up to suggestion. After your post the last thing I want to do is to ask you for help tbh. A better way to approach it is to leave off the condescending bit and just focus on the educational one. Food for thought...

Json: 
I really don't see where my tone was condescending - If you believe so, sorry, you did not read the information I provided in the fashion in which it was intended.. 

If you want to attack me for trying to help you, when you asked for the help, well, you are not really thinking it through.

Idk, maybe I am not considering something else about it though. If so I would love to hear so the next time I flip a boat I don't make the same mistake. I don't have a lot of experience lifting things or using cranes, I do have a lot of engineering math under my belt but that doesn't translate well to understanding real world scenarios for dos and don'ts.

Unfortunately, only about 10% of a message is conveyed in the words.  And I thought you wanted some constructive feedback from your post.  I guess that was not really the case... ::)
« Last Edit: December 03, 2019, 03:14:13 PM by Jim_Hbar »

json

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Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
« Reply #126 on: December 03, 2019, 04:05:18 PM »
Jim, I do want constructive feedback. Thanks for giving it. I am not entirely sure what sawhorses have to do with anything, and maybe it was how you used emoticons, but I am not usually a bristly person and I bristled. So if I misunderstood you then my apologies.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2019, 04:13:34 PM by json »

Jim_Hbar

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Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
« Reply #127 on: December 03, 2019, 05:48:57 PM »
Json: No problem.

Engineers have a reputation for being blunt and/or terse, and which can be interpreted as being curt.  When discussing a technical topic, I do tend to shift into "engineer mode".  You stating that you could do the engineering calculations probably caused me to make an unconscious assumption.
I've had meetings with a junior engineer and a draftsman, discussing particular aspects of a project - and after the discussion of a particular point, have the draftsman ask "what the hell did you guys just talk about?". 

You need to understand my position - As a P.Eng., one can create a liability exposure if one is not careful. Or be accused of practicing in a jurisdiction that one is not licensed for.  I read these forums for entertainment and education. And post only if I have a contribution (or a joke) to make.

What I'm calling "sawhorses" are what you referred to as "gantries".  It's mostly an attempt at humor.
To me, gantries are mobile crane assemblies, and thus would have a rated capacity.

Some hints:
- Crosby makes good "rated" rigging - it is darn expensive, but their rigging guides have good application information.  Here is some light reading.
- You will not find a "rated" formed eyebolt.  The bloody things open up just when you need them not to.  It's bad juju pulling sideways on an eyebolt, even the good ones!  For a hint on how to do it, look at the design of the bolted anchors used in rock climbing.
- In normal use, slings should not be used at angles less than 60deg. from the horizontal.  The tension loads in the sling increase dramatically as the sling angle approaches the horizontal, when lifting.
- Use shackles not caribiners.
- Do not tie knots in slings.

Brian.Dixon

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Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
« Reply #128 on: December 04, 2019, 06:30:10 AM »
<snip>
Engineers have a reputation for being blunt and/or terse, and which can be interpreted as being curt.  When discussing a technical topic, I do tend to shift into "engineer mode".
<snip>

I have this issue ... too frank, too blunt.  Comes across wrong when text is all the other person is getting ... instead of my charming smile and a pat on the back while I tell them what all their problems are ... LOL  :D :D

Brian


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Djeffrey

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Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
« Reply #129 on: December 04, 2019, 09:35:47 AM »
I am laughing out here in Colorado. I have a couple friends out here who sound just like you guys. Engineers are a unique personality but they sure are handy at times. The problem is they always want to do things the right way, for me winging it is half the adventure. The key is to always have an escape route. 😂

json

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Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
« Reply #130 on: December 07, 2019, 08:33:39 PM »
Am I reading the manual right that the sheer is 1/2" ply only? Is this still the case if I go wider on the sheer in the cockpit, say 10"? Could I go thicker and use 3/4" if that is the case?

Another question, I found out that west systems microfibers 403 is apparently not the same thing as microfibers referenced for strengthening fillets in the manual. I mixed 403 into my fillet mix for the stem/shelves joint and one large transom fillet before I realized the err of my ways and used real microfibers. Should I reinforce the fillets or joints with larger fillets with epoxy with actual microfibers in them or will those fillets be ok? I assume they will be good enough, but repairing a cracked fillet in those areas sounds painful. I think on the transom I used a 4" diameter fillet.

Brian.Dixon

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Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
« Reply #131 on: December 08, 2019, 07:04:12 AM »
No reason to go thicker than 1/2" ply for sheer decks, even if you go 10" instead of the prescribed 9" wide decks.  ALL edges are supported in the finished boat.  For example, along the pilot house and cuddy, the inner edge is supported by the pilot house and cuddy side panels.  In the cockpit, all models recommend coaming along the inside edge as well (see pic below).  The only difference between the models on the cockpit coaming is that the Newport and Rockport have coaming that runs about 3/4" above the top of the sheer decking, and on the Prince Rupert and Kodiak, the coaming runs higher.  The structure shown below is extremely stiff and strong.  The span of the decking between the underlying 5" shelves and the inward edge of the sheer decking is only 4" plus or minus ... well within the capabilities of 1/2" plywood.  The bottom line?  No worries ... build as described.

WEST 403 Minifibers use COTTON fibers.  When the Great Alaskan plans ask for minifibers, it means FIBERGLASS minifibers ... good catch!  Unfortunate product name by WEST!  I'm pretty sure I say "fiberglass" together with "minifibers" in the plans.   WEST also makes a mix of PLASTIC minifibers, which are used for final fairing of boats attractive to the 'wood rubbers' crowd that think all boats should look like colorful mirrors.... LOL.

Coaming on the inner edge of the cockpit sheer decks:

« Last Edit: December 08, 2019, 07:06:13 AM by Brian.Dixon »
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json

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Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
« Reply #132 on: December 08, 2019, 03:44:20 PM »
No reason to go thicker than 1/2" ply for sheer decks, even if you go 10" instead of the prescribed 9" wide decks.  ALL edges are supported in the finished boat.  For example, along the pilot house and cuddy, the inner edge is supported by the pilot house and cuddy side panels.  In the cockpit, all models recommend coaming along the inside edge as well (see pic below).  The only difference between the models on the cockpit coaming is that the Newport and Rockport have coaming that runs about 3/4" above the top of the sheer decking, and on the Prince Rupert and Kodiak, the coaming runs higher.  The structure shown below is extremely stiff and strong.  The span of the decking between the underlying 5" shelves and the inward edge of the sheer decking is only 4" plus or minus ... well within the capabilities of 1/2" plywood.  The bottom line?  No worries ... build as described.

Makes sense, thanks Brian!

Brian.Dixon

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Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
« Reply #133 on: December 08, 2019, 05:20:26 PM »
Sorry for being so wordy...😁
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 http://www.glacierboats.com  ><((((> .`.><((((> .`.><((((>

json

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Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
« Reply #134 on: December 08, 2019, 10:19:37 PM »
So wordy? Never! Always clearing up confusion and/or misinformation, as well as making searchable information for other builders who might wonder the same thing. Keep up the good work sir, you are doing a fine job of it. This forum is seriously such a valuable resource (and being able to ask you questions Brian in particular). It's kind of mind blowing.